on a budget
sorry bro, i thought this was still blackknight’s thread
i’m boostin 8psi right now on my daily drive DA(boost cut issues) and i’m planning to run that much boost on my stock motor as soon as i get the boost cut fix…
Talk to Stu. He was dynoed at 277whp on stock internals and i believe its his dailly driver.
hello stu.
hmm…?
I agree with grayt, just cause they dyno at that psi doesn’t mean they drive it at that psi daily. Maybe they do and have good luck, but I’m like gray I would like to play it safe on my daily. They probably tuned out very good too. That’s just my opinion though. Thanks integrapunk that really helped make my decision. I’m on a budget too, but I’m just dying for speed right now. I’m trying to take my time, hustle up some cash, and do it to the max. I am planning to build it, so I think I might go ahead with the original plan to lsvtec. I bought the gsr head yesterday minus cams and valve cover. I wish it was a b16 head, but the gsr will do cause I won’t be turbo for a while. From my understanding the gsr has smaller combustion chambers and higher compression because of it. I don’t want that with turbo…and this is still my thread! :mad: j/k
You dont have to be a dickhead. All im saying is that as long as the engine is tuned properly and is not detonating it is going to last until something like a rod or piston gives. I made a reference to stu because his car is proof that it can be done, Im not saying that i would do it either but it can be done and will probably last longer than you think.
Don’t forget that the GSR transmission has better torque multiplication than the LS transmission; however, the GSR transmission has shorter gears so you sacrifice top speed for better acceleration vs the LS transmission’s long gears for higher top speed and lower acceleration rate than the latter.
and as for stock internals go - check this guy’s post
Turbo Hondas can work well and not blow up, but you have to do things right. Since I have turbo’ed my LS (running around 6 psi), I have beaten the crap out of it every day, have taken it autocrossing a bunch of times, and have gone to a road course four times. That was all on stock internals, and it’s still running strong with good compression numbers. Many people claim that turbo Hondas are unreliable and I should have blown mine up 10 times by now, but they are wrong.
I know it wont last forever, but considering the abuse that I have put it through, I’m extremely pleased with how it’s holding up. The key is that you must take care of two things:
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Oil. This is very important for keeping your bearings alive. It also cools the engine and the turbo. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to take care of… Just use good oil, check the level frequently, and install a pressure gauge (sometimes oil pumps go bad, so you need to know before it’s too late). While it is true that you will want more resistance to heat, don’t get something that’s not good for cold starting… cold starts cause a lot of engine wear because there’s not much oil where it needs to be. The sooner oil gets there, the longer your engine will last. I use Mobil 1 0w40. It’s good for cold temps, and it can tolerate the heat too.
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Heat. Excessive heat will cause detonation, melt pistons, warp heads, break down oil, and so on. Your engine will generate a lot more heat than before, and there are several things you need to do. The most important part to cool is inside of the combustion chamber; that’s where the heat is created, and that’s also where much of the damage would be done. Coolant surrounds the cylinders, so it just carries away heat once it transfers through the cylinder wall. That’s important and all, but you must cool it down from the inside too. There are three things that you are putting into the combusion chamber: air, fuel, and spark. You can use all three of them to make it run cooler. Here’s what you need to do:
a) Fuel. You need to use premium gasolene only, and you need to make the engine run a little rich too. I’m running about 12.5:1 for my air/fuel ratio. The extra fuel will cool things down. You MUST tune your fuel management with a wideband O2 sensor on a dyno (you need the load, especially for a turbo car). Don’t just guess, unless you like replacing engines. And this is not tuning for maximum power; you are going for a specific A/F ratio.
It’s also very important to have good reliable fuel management. Avoid FMUs and check valves (aka Missing Link); those are extremely ghetto and are completely against the way that electronic fuel injection is designed to work. Standalone fuel management is the best choice, but you can still do a good job without it…
A good fuel pump (Walbro 255 lr/hr), a VAFC, and 450cc injectors (w/ resistor box, if needed) is all that you need to tune for a good A/F ratio. It’s not the perfect solution that a standalone is, but it works really well and wont cause a check engine light unless you go above 10 psi of boost… Hook the AFC up the way it was meant to be (ie no TPS/MAP hack), and just lean it out by about 35% at all RPMs, then take it to a dyno with a wideband for tuning.
What’s happening is that the AFC is scaling down the MAP signal so that the ECU will shorten the injector pulses and not see boost. The larger injectors are providing much more fuel than stock, so those shorter pulses are all that is needed. Basically, you are expanding the ECU’s fuel map into boost and fine tuning it. BTW, if you have a LS, go ahead and get the VAFC. Just set the VTEC point to 4000, low cam settings from 1000-4000, and high cam from 4000-7000… You will then have 16 adjustment points rather than 8. That will make your A/F ratio more precise and easier to tune.
b) Ignition system. Retard your base timing to 14 degrees or less, and use a colder spark plug. Spark plugs do more than just cause the explosion, they also serve as a heat sink. A colder spark plug means that it’s insulator is designed to carry more heat out of the combustion chamber. NGK part number ZFR7F is two steps colder for a LS, and one step for a GS-R/Type-R. It’s only stock application is an Aston Martin DB7, so it’s pretty unlikely to be stocked at your local auto parts stores. It and other hard to find plugs can be ordered from SparkPlugs.com.
You should also use a smaller than normal gap to keep it from missing. The denser air and fuel mixture will require more voltage to create a spark through, but reducing the plug’s gap will counteract that problem (at the expense of having a smaller spark). I ran the stock gap of 1.1mm on Bosch Platinum plugs for a while and had no noticable problems, but I suspect that the spark was weaker than it should have been. I’m using 0.9mm now and it feels a little smoother, but it really wasn’t bad before. However, your mileage may vary, especially if your ignition system components are more worn than mine.
c) Air. The air coming out of the turbo will be hot, even on a cold day. This is where a good intercooler comes in, but be aware that a front mount will block the radiator. Fortunately, the air going into the combustion chamber will be much cooler, so you are a little less dependant on the coolant. However, coolant is still important, and you really don’t need a huge front mount, so try not to block the radiator too much.
d) Coolant. It takes heat away from the cylinders and head, so it’s pretty important. The upgrades are pretty simple… a more efficient radiator (ie larger), and better coolant. Glycol (main component of anti-freeze) is good for not freezing, but pure water is much better for cooling. It’s normal to run a 50/50 mix of the two. If you don’t have to worry about freezing weather, then bias the mixture to include more water. Anti-freeze does include corrosion inhibitors, so it is beneficial to keep some in the cooling system, even it’s always warm where you live.
quoted from “Weston” on Team-Integra.net
good info bro, just glad to see the topic still going. I didn’t want it to end with arguments cause I’m still trying to figure out what I should do. I have the gsr head, but people say that it’s not as good for a turbo application cause the smaller chambers make the compression go up. Should I just try to get a b16 head or put money into this one? Any thoughts?
Using a newer 94+ GSR head only raises your compression by about .2 Not enough to grant getting a completely different head.
i personally would go with the gsr turbo the gsr motor has better internals also it dose rev a lot higher then an ls i have an ls i want to upgrade to a b18c or b20 vtec i guess if you want the best of both motors do ls vtec turbo vtech is the shit!
I’ve seen some nice #‘s on both gsr’s and lsvtec’s. I think I will go with one of the 2 with 84mm bore. My friend has a 84mm b16 and that thing pulls like my car and he doesn’t even have the vtec working! I still like the thought of the ls turbo cause my pocket won’t hurt as bad, but I’m tired of my slow ls now and it’s time to step up my game. Does anyone have overheating problems with their fmi blocking the radiator? Thanks tchleung for the info, I’ll be keepin’ the gsr head then.
I’ve also heard of people changing the vtec engagement point to lower rpm to get more out of the entire powerband too.
posted by josef_G on Team-Integra.net
it depends upon the rpm at which the peak boost occurs. Sometimes people move the VTEC just to “get it out of the way” so that you don’t have to deal with any traction issues associated with the switch or any air fuel ratio disturbances happening with the switchover event (if you’ve ever fuel tuned an engine you’ll know that this is one area that takes some tome inputing settings to get the fuel right to deliver the flatter torque curve you want). In FI it doesn’t have to do with actual VTEC being important. It has to do with the nuisances it can cause and you want the high lift already up when your peak boost arrives. Some people just lock the pin that holds the 3 rockers together and run off the VTEC lobe only and do substantial partial throttle tuning to get the car to be driveable in low boost, partial throttle using the VTEC lobe.
Michael Delaney’s post to respond on Team-Integra.net
So what I’m getting from this is that VTEC doesn’t necessarily aid in the FI setup, but it’s the higher lift after VTEC is engaged that it aids.
to minimise overscavenging, increased pumping losses, and increased blow-down , these FI guys like high lift, wider lobe separation angle cams with short durations. They can shift the valve opening time using cam gears but they want the overlap to be as brief as possible but placed at the right time in the engine cycle to fill the cylinder maximally with low mixture separation.
Take a look at some of the aftermarket “turbo” cams. High lift, short overlap, short duration. aftermarket VTEC N/A cams on the VTEC lobe fullfill the high lift part of the equation but don’t deliver on the other 2 prerequisites for a “good” cam. Sometimes stock is better.
Adjustable cam gears are your best friends here.
posted by Michael Delaney on Team-Integra.net
I respond with this due to BlackKnight’s recent post
My friend has a 84mm b16 and that thing pulls like my car and he doesn’t even have the vtec working!
hope what i quoted from others helps
Thanks for the reply. In my friends case he could really use the vtec. He plans to turbo, but wants the motor to run properly before he puts it on.
yeah i fine the pweor from before VTEC and after is actualyl noticeable. I ahve mines on my b16 at 5100. anythnig udner 5000 it’ll ahve a “flat spot” for a second and that’s also when the A/F ratisoa re right now. but I also doa gree tht as soon as VTEC kicks in. it runs from a 12:1 before btec to a quick 10:1 after vtec for a split second then goes back to a ncie 12:1. II’m still tyrying to fine tune it…
Hi.
Yes I know this is a old topic but its an important one i reckon.
Anyway. I’m purchasing a Gen 2 pretty soon but im tossing up between the LS or the GSR. I will be looking to turbo it with stock internals until i have enough money. Both cars are around the same price with similar amount of kms (australia :P).
I have read through this post a lot and im kind of drifting towards the GSR because of the advantages the engine has. But a lot of ppl suggest the LS because of other certain reasons.
So basically LS or GSR (same price) for Turbo…???
Thanks in advance! 
Lol, well if the GS-R is the same price then I would take that in a hearbeat. Sell the B17 to someone (they are very prized motors) and then buy a cheap LS and build it with the money you made. Better yet, build it while you are driving around hitting “vtec” all over and just imagine the boost 
Sell the motor and recoup your losses.
Seriously, the head design does not have much to do with making lots of power anyhow (the difference between the two is what I am referring to). When you boost a car the dynamics change cnosiderably, large ports arent necessary (often times larger, “better flowing” heads mean more lag).
The rev’s have nothign to do with spool up time, only displacement and compression (as far as the motor goes).
This is the way I see it: if the motors aren’t going to be built, the LS is better because its got lower CR to start with, little more displacement (help make up for loss of CR to the gsr), is MUCH cheaper. If you are going to build the motors extensively, I still choose the LS because whats advantage would the gsr have over the LS then? Vtec? I have boosted 3 vtec motors now and I could care less about it anymore. Not one of them can I feel any difference in power on butt dyno or real dyno (maybe 1hp) when vtec comes in.
Yeah, sorry I dont agree. Head design has EVERYTHING to do with the power an engine makes. An engine makes power by bringing in air, combining it with fuel and creating and explosion. The more efficient it is in bringing in that air, the more power it will make (and has the potential to make).
VTEC heads breathe better than LS heads. They were designed with different power bands. VTEC have a much wider overall powerband (area under the curve in a graph) and thus repsond better to less boost (safer).
NON-vtec engines have more torque because of there stroke and rod dimensions as well as the design of the head. however, peak torque occurs at a much lower RPM than the VTEC engines and thus power is lower.
Get the GSR if you can for the same price and boost it safely (10psi)…you will be happy.
definitely agree to what xenocron is saying.
in terms of stock vs. stock motor. a gsr is the way to go, let me tell you why.
when applying boost in a combustion chamber, it will create more force on the rod bearings. the ls bearings being bi-metal will fatigue and wear out faster than the gsr bearings. i can go on all day how adeqate the bottom end is for turbo on a gsr. but anyways, as every body has already pointed out that the gsr head is better, i would also like to point out that stock gsr cams have been proven to make 600 whp on motors with high boost. i kno youre not aiming for 600whp but the gsr cam lift and duration is best suited for turbo.
the B18c1 is a good platform to start off with when going turbo. especially if you plan on going with more boost later on in the future, good luck and happy motoring.
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