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Timing off? Bogging at low RPMS moreso when the A/C is on

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Timing off? Bogging at low RPMS moreso when the A/C is on

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    Timing off? Bogging at low RPMS moreso when the A/C is on

    Ok so I'm starting a new thread from this one:
    http://www.g2ic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194028

    Because that thread title has nothing to do with my current problem.
    The current problem is that the car bogs at low RPMs when I accelerate and with the A/C on I almost die when I start from a dead stop.

    Prior to me replacing parts and working on the distributor the car was running fine, acceleration was great with and without the A/C.

    Here is what I've replaced.

    - distributor cap
    - distributor rotor
    - spark plugs (NGK vpower, gapped at .044)
    - spark plug wires (OEM sumitomo)
    - Timing is 8 degrees off (meaning the three marks on the engine block is still to the left of the white arrow (0 BTC). This was checked without jumping the service connector.

    Keep in mind the car's acceleration was fine (even with the A/C) prior to me fukin with the distributor and changing the above mentioned parts.
    This adventure was to try and find out if my MFR was bad or not.

    This morning: Looks like the timing done the other day (done by a local mechanic) was off by 16 deg, mind you he did jump the service connector when adjusting the timing since that day because he said it was off before he jumped it and after he said it was pretty close so all he did was move it bit to get it spot on.
    Today when the other mechanic checked it without the service connector jumped he said it's off 16 degrees, he says the timing information on the inside hood of the car doesn't say anything about jumping the service connector, so we tried to adjust it without the service connector jumped. I turned the distributor as far advanced as I could (turned it towards the firewall) and it was still 8 degrees off. The car does seem to run a bit better at the low-end, bogging has somewhat gone away. He said being off by 2 degrees is OK but 8 is still off.
    I told him what I did and he said maybe I broke something in the distributor? The only thing I can think of is when I used an easy-out to remove the stripped rotor screw that a piece of metal shaving got inside the distributor? Other than that nothing else I could think of, but would something like this cause the distributor to be off by that much and difficult to adjust?
    So now I have two acura mechanics contradicting each other one who adjusted the timing with the service connector jumper but afterwards the bogging was still there. And another who did the adjustment without jumping the service connector but bogging seems a bit better?
    it's a 1993 Integra GS.

    #2
    Originally posted by azzurribaggio View Post
    - Timing is 8 degrees off (meaning the three marks on the engine block is still to the left of the white arrow (0 BTC). This was checked without jumping the service connector.
    First off, I didn't check your old thread, that thing is LONG!

    What you wrote above, does not really make sense. And unless some terminology is cleared up it might be difficult to figure out what's going on.

    Do you have a timing light that is telling you specifically (digital readout) what your timing is?

    There is one marking on the timing belt cover, this is what you want to use to reference the marks on the crank pulley. There is also a mark on your oil pump which is used to reference the mark on your crankshaft gear when the pulley is not installed. There are no marks on the engine block.

    Single white mark on the crank pulley = TDC

    Red mark on crank pulley = 16deg BTDC
    Two white marks next to the red mark = 14deg and 18deg BTDC.

    There are no markings for 8 deg off. Furthermore 8 deg off could mean your ignition timing is at 8deg BTDC or 24deg BTDC. It may help to specify which direction your timing is off.

    But before dealing with any of that stuff, I must ask... Have you checked your mechanical timing? You can mess around with your ignition timing all you want, but if your mechanical timing is off you're never going to get everything straightened out until you fix that first.

    Comment


      #3
      Agreed. Confirm that the mechanical (i.e. valve) timing is accurate.

      You absolutely must jump the service connector to accurately measure ignition timing. Jumping the service connector allows you to determine base timing, which should be at 16 degrees BTDC +/- 2 degrees.

      Comment


        #4
        ...
        Last edited by Squeezethis; 03 Jul 2009, 05:47:45.

        Comment


          #5
          Helms specifically says #1, make sure the motor is warmed up (start it, and let it run til the fan comes on), and #2 to jump the service connector. I've read that jumping the service connector keeps the ecu from advancing the timing at idle so that the "base" timing can be set properly. It's an important part of the process. Don't skip it, and don't allow your car to be serviced by someone who thinks it's not necessary. Now your timing is off for sure if you let that guy set it. I asked you in the other thread if you checked the catalytic converter to make sure it's in good working order. Have you done that? A clogged converter will cause loss of power, especially at low RPM's.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by ninezeroteg View Post
            Helms specifically says #1, make sure the motor is warmed up (start it, and let it run til the fan comes on), and #2 to jump the service connector. I've read that jumping the service connector keeps the ecu from advancing the timing at idle so that the "base" timing can be set properly. It's an important part of the process. Don't skip it, and don't allow your car to be serviced by someone who thinks it's not necessary. Now your timing is off for sure if you let that guy set it. I asked you in the other thread if you checked the catalytic converter to make sure it's in good working order. Have you done that? A clogged converter will cause loss of power, especially at low RPM's.
            good stuff.

            Comment


              #7
              I'm dropping the car off tomorrow at the shop, most likely the guy working on the car will be the first guy who jumped the service connector while checking the timing. I'll stress to the guys to double check the mechanical timing first, I guess to make sure cylinder #1 is firing at TDC? Then once that's fine to check the ignition timing again with the service connector jumped. The from there deal with the hesitation if it still exist after doing all this.

              The catalytic converter should be good since it was working last week before I started fiddling with the distributor.

              Mountain View is Norcal about 50mins south of San Francisco.

              Comment


                #8
                I'm dropping the car off tomorrow at the shop, most likely the guy working on the car will be the first guy who jumped the service connector while checking the timing. I'll stress to the guys to double check the mechanical timing first, I guess to make sure cylinder #1 is firing at TDC? Then once that's fine to check the ignition timing again with the service connector jumped. The from there deal with the hesitation if it still exist after doing all this.

                The catalytic converter should be good since it was working last week before I started fiddling with the distributor.

                Mountain View is Norcal about 50mins south of San Francisco.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm dropping the car off tomorrow at the shop, most likely the guy working on the car will be the first guy who jumped the service connector while checking the timing. I'll stress to the guys to double check the mechanical timing first, I guess to make sure cylinder #1 is firing at TDC? Then once that's fine to check the ignition timing again with the service connector jumped. The from there deal with the hesitation if it still exist after doing all this.

                  The catalytic converter should be good since it was working last week before I started fiddling with the distributor.

                  Mountain View is Norcal about 50mins south of San Francisco.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm dropping the car off tomorrow at the shop, most likely the guy working on the car will be the first guy who jumped the service connector while checking the timing. I'll stress to the guys to double check the mechanical timing first, I guess to make sure cylinder #1 is firing at TDC? Then once that's fine to check the ignition timing again with the service connector jumped. The from there deal with the hesitation if it still exist after doing all this.

                    The catalytic converter should be good since it was working last week before I started fiddling with the distributor.

                    Mountain View is Norcal about 50mins south of San Francisco.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm dropping the car off tomorrow at the shop, most likely the guy working on the car will be the first guy who jumped the service connector while checking the timing. I'll stress to the guys to double check the mechanical timing first, I guess to make sure cylinder #1 is firing at TDC? Then once that's fine to check the ignition timing again with the service connector jumped. The from there deal with the hesitation if it still exist after doing all this.

                      The catalytic converter should be good since it was working last week before I started fiddling with the distributor.

                      Mountain View is Norcal about 50mins south of San Francisco.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I'm dropping the car off tomorrow at the shop, most likely the guy working on the car will be the first guy who jumped the service connector while checking the timing. I'll stress to the guys to double check the mechanical timing first, I guess to make sure cylinder #1 is firing at TDC? Then once that's fine to check the ignition timing again with the service connector jumped. The from there deal with the hesitation if it still exist after doing all this.

                        The catalytic converter should be good since it was working last week before I started fiddling with the distributor.

                        Mountain View is Norcal about 50mins south of San Francisco.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          removed.
                          Last edited by Squeezethis; 03 Jul 2009, 05:47:20.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Squeezethis View Post
                            once u do that..... remove the cap on the distributor, it will pointing somewhere down bottom left which is in the direction of the contact for the #1 spark plug wire.........
                            Jeff, is this a normal practice you use? I've never done that and as I explained earlier, don't see why it should be used or how it's even helpful. When we're talking about mechanical timing it can be hard enough to see if things are exactly lined up when using the all of the stock markings. And these markings should be considered "fine". The distributor rotor is going to be "roughly" pointed in one direction. I'm sure you could have the mechanical timing off multiple degrees and not be able to tell based on the distributor rotor unless you were EXTREMELY familiar with EXACTLY how it lines up. Because there are no markings to look for... Seems to me that recommending that he look at the dist rotor you're just going to be confusing him and quite possibly arising doubt.

                            The markings on the cams and crank pulley are fairly "fine" increments and should be pretty easy to line up. But often I will put a screwdriver into the #4 cylinder and watch it rise and fall. It will reach a peak height, pause for a fraction of a rotation then begin to drop again. That fraction of a rotation where it pauses is TDC for the #1 and #4 cylinders. This just acts as a very accurate "double check" of you truly being at TDC. Plus it's really easy to watch as you watch the cam gears. If the two marks on the cam gears don't line up at exactly the same time as that screwdriver "pauses" then your mechanical timing is off.


                            In THIS giant photo you can see how the cam gears should look when at TDC. A little harder to see and not the best angle, but the crank is also lined up with the arrow on the oil pump.

                            HERE you can see how the crank gear marking lines up w/ the arrow on the oil pump.

                            THIS is a modified crank pulley, but the concept is the same. You'll see the single white marking lined up w/ the arrow on the timing belt cover. This is how it will look when the crank is at TDC. The other three markings are used when setting your ignition timing.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Colin View Post
                              In THIS giant photo you can see how the cam gears should look when at TDC. A little harder to see and not the best angle, but the crank is also lined up with the arrow on the oil pump.
                              Also, if you look really closely at this picture you'll see two hash marks at 3 o'clock on the exhaust cam gear (on the left), and 9 o'clock on the intake cam (on the right). These marks are each right in the middle of one tooth on the cam gear, and should be pointing directly at each other.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                ^^ That is what you're supposed to be looking at to make sure you're at TDC, I figured I didn't need to point that out, but I guess so.

                                The "up" marks can be confusing for people because they don't point UP as in directly straight towards the sky. They point UP in relation to the engine. The engine tilts slightly forward in the car, so those arrows also point slightly forward.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  removed.
                                  Last edited by Squeezethis; 03 Jul 2009, 05:46:40.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    *i'm crazy*
                                    Last edited by Squeezethis; 03 Jul 2009, 01:50:50.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Well my mechanic only charged me $20 and that's because there is a minimum charge at his shop.
                                      They set the timing (with the service connector disabled) and now the car is miraculously back to normal, no hesitation throughout the gears even when I have the A/C on.
                                      He did say the timing belt is stretched, what side affects could this have? He told me to go look at the last time it was replaced and go from there on whether to change it now or later (I bought this car back in September so I'll have to look at the receipts the previous owner gave me).
                                      I mentioned the powdered rust all over the inside of the distributor and he said most likely the bearing could be going? So he said monitor (if it starts making noise) that cause he showed me distributor where that happened and I see the same powdered rust all over the inside of that one as well.
                                      Replacing the bearings alone wouldn't be so bad or would I have to get an entirely new distributor?
                                      So all in all no more problems, I'm waiting for my MFR to come next week then I'll replace mine and see if I have any more starting issues this entire summer (unless I fuk up something replacing that thing!!!!!!)
                                      Thanks all for the advice and info....this place rocks

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        removed.
                                        Last edited by Squeezethis; 03 Jul 2009, 05:47:00.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Squeezethis View Post
                                          good to hear man. so u are saying he timed the engine without jumping the service connector? another reason i have never bothered having an obd1, even tho i want to convert one of these days.

                                          a stretched belt can affect mechanical timing in high rpms. regarding the rust on the distributor. it is true that powdered rust is usually a sign of grinding of rusty parts together, but if u do hear noises then thats definitely the indicator that the bearing is going. i dunno if its possible to change just the bearings, but i'd rather just get another distributor by then.
                                          No, he did have to jump the service connector after consulting the computer he said. So a stretched timing belt can cause hiccups at high RPMs? I'll start saving up for a new distributor then

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Stretched timing belt? How does he know this? Sounds like he's talking out his ass. If the belt is stretched then the timing will be off and needs to be replaced. I've never seen this. When timing belts go bad they usually break apart. It's sort of all or nothing with a timing belt.

                                            If your dist bearing is going out then you need to replace the distributor housing, you can't just replace the bearing. If the bearing seizes it will cause your timing to jump some teeth or it will destroy your timing belt. Not something you want to happen if it can be prevented.

                                            Jeff, I'm gonna have to completely disagree with you about the distributor. The distributor CAN NOT be installed wrong. You're simply mistaken about this one. Camshaft rotates once, distributor rotor also rotates once. There is no gear reduction within the distributor causing it to spin at a different rate.

                                            If the distributor rotated slower than the camshaft you would end up with spark only in two cylinders when you need it in four.

                                            One rotation of the camshaft = two rotations of the crankshaft. This means that each cylinder has gone through it's full four strokes. That means four sparks needed to occur during that cycle. One rotation of the distributor = 4 sparks. Half a rotation would have only yielded two sparks.

                                            So again, you CAN NOT install the distributor incorrectly. The rotor spins at the same rate as the cam. The rotor only fits the dist in one orientation. And the dist only fits the cam in one orientation.

                                            If you still don't believe me please find multiple sources of documentation to backup your theory.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              removed.
                                              Last edited by Squeezethis; 03 Jul 2009, 05:45:28.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Colin View Post
                                                Stretched timing belt? How does he know this? Sounds like he's talking out his ass. If the belt is stretched then the timing will be off and needs to be replaced. I've never seen this. When timing belts go bad they usually break apart. It's sort of all or nothing with a timing belt.

                                                If your dist bearing is going out then you need to replace the distributor housing, you can't just replace the bearing. If the bearing seizes it will cause your timing to jump some teeth or it will destroy your timing belt. Not something you want to happen if it can be prevented.

                                                Jeff, I'm gonna have to completely disagree with you about the distributor. The distributor CAN NOT be installed wrong. You're simply mistaken about this one. Camshaft rotates once, distributor rotor also rotates once. There is no gear reduction within the distributor causing it to spin at a different rate.

                                                If the distributor rotated slower than the camshaft you would end up with spark only in two cylinders when you need it in four.

                                                One rotation of the camshaft = two rotations of the crankshaft. This means that each cylinder has gone through it's full four strokes. That means four sparks needed to occur during that cycle. One rotation of the distributor = 4 sparks. Half a rotation would have only yielded two sparks.

                                                So again, you CAN NOT install the distributor incorrectly. The rotor spins at the same rate as the cam. The rotor only fits the dist in one orientation. And the dist only fits the cam in one orientation.

                                                If you still don't believe me please find multiple sources of documentation to backup your theory.
                                                So the car has just under 150,000 miles. I hear timing belts need to be replaced every 90,000 miles...is it safe to say the previous owner would've had to change the timing belt once or can they last up to 150,000 miles? It's an expensive repair and the past two months I've dumped ~$1200 on the car (A/C compressor replaced and power steering hose replaced, plus replaced some worn suspension parts)...so I want to see how long I can wait before replacing the timing belt.....
                                                The distributor doesn't make any noise to indicate the bearings are bad....just saw the same powdered rust inside mine as with the bad one at the shop.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  removed.
                                                  Last edited by Squeezethis; 03 Jul 2009, 05:45:40.

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