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    crower 404 question?

    Im planing on going all crower internals and the 404 camshafts my question is do the 404 make that really cammy noise like u know all like a v8 lol or it has a nice sound to it like steady.

    #2
    it does make a lopey idle, if that's what you're asking. (once you're running overlap)

    Comment


      #3
      yea thats what i mean loopy idle like going up and down, hmmm is their any way of fixing that and at what rpm number will it be at like between 1500 to 2000 or more.And what about the crower 403's do they make that loopy idle as well?

      Comment


        #4
        they're lopey in the sense that they "sound" lopey, but the idle doesn't go up and down all the time, a little, like from 740-760rpms, but they're totally fine, maybe once a week i get a little searching-idle action, but it lasts like 2 minutes and goes away.

        it's mostly people who don't have these cams that give them their reputation, so don't listen to em, you're gonna be dissapointed though if you toss these cams in and don't raise your CR,

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by scooby_dooby
          they're lopey in the sense that they "sound" lopey, but the idle doesn't go up and down all the time, a little, like from 740-760rpms, but they're totally fine, maybe once a week i get a little searching-idle action, but it lasts like 2 minutes and goes away.

          it's mostly people who don't have these cams that give them their reputation, so don't listen to em, you're gonna be dissapointed though if you toss these cams in and don't raise your CR,
          Exactly!

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by scooby_dooby
            they're lopey in the sense that they "sound" lopey, but the idle doesn't go up and down all the time, a little, like from 740-760rpms, but they're totally fine, maybe once a week i get a little searching-idle action, but it lasts like 2 minutes and goes away.

            it's mostly people who don't have these cams that give them their reputation, so don't listen to em, you're gonna be dissapointed though if you toss these cams in and don't raise your CR,
            I'm assuming you're referring to me,
            I am running these cams.
            I'm assuming you run these cams, too. Do you have any overlap running on them?

            My idle does surge up and down, especially on a cold start, but it won't go from 2000-1500. It will go from 1100-800. I have to fully warm up my car before it will idle on it's own. And, yes, my car is dyno-tuned.

            If you drop these cams in and don't play around with the cam timing, then the idle won't be too bad, but once you start tweaking them, the idle will get worse.

            Comment


              #7
              I've run these cams before. They idle like a go-kart, and they will shake the car a bit. Is it unbearable? No. Is it annoying? Damn right. I had mine set to about 900RPM and they werent too bad, but when I tried to make them idle any lower, the lope would almost cause the car to die. Alot of the lope can be dialed out with cam gears (which I did not have) but dont expect to throw them in and not notice it.

              Lets put it this way...you'll get tired of people asking "whats wrong with your car" after you install them. Once your moving its fine though.

              Comment


                #8
                eclyps i wasn't referring to you, just the general misconseption that is spread on thsi forum and others, that somehow these cams are barely streetable, which is a joke. I mean, you can tell it has cams, but it's absolutely no probelm.

                My head is milled 30thou, so my gears are both advanced 3degrees, also my baseline timing is set at 18degrees. I've never had anyone ask me whats wrong with my car, it sounds awesome, I never had to raise my idle speed, and the only time the car ever died was day one before the VAFC had been set for idle.

                As for not starting in the cold, I use command start and the car has never stalled, and as you know Alberta gets some pretty cold mornings too. It starts perfectly in the cold, sits solid at 2000rpms no searching/surging.

                So people have different experiences, some people get really rough idles, and others like me and arw hardly notice it. Some, like notstock, say you need cam gears to "dial out" the lope, others like eclyps say the idles fine UNTIL you mess with the cam gears,

                personally I've never had a problem with the idle and I think people who do probably just need a new timing belt or tensioner, or IACV, or have someother problem other than the cams.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by scooby_dooby
                  eclyps i wasn't referring to you, just the general misconseption that is spread on thsi forum and others, that somehow these cams are barely streetable, which is a joke. I mean, you can tell it has cams, but it's absolutely no probelm.

                  My head is milled 30thou, so my gears are both advanced 3degrees, also my baseline timing is set at 18degrees. I've never had anyone ask me whats wrong with my car, it sounds awesome, I never had to raise my idle speed, and the only time the car ever died was day one before the VAFC had been set for idle.

                  As for not starting in the cold, I use command start and the car has never stalled, and as you know Alberta gets some pretty cold mornings too. It starts perfectly in the cold, sits solid at 2000rpms no searching/surging.

                  So people have different experiences, some people get really rough idles, and others like me and arw hardly notice it. Some, like notstock, say you need cam gears to "dial out" the lope, others like eclyps say the idles fine UNTIL you mess with the cam gears,

                  personally I've never had a problem with the idle and I think people who do probably just need a new timing belt or tensioner, or IACV, or have someother problem other than the cams.
                  hmmm...you're probably not having problems because you advanced both cams, meaning there is 0 overlap. I'm curious as to why you did that, though. Crower cams generally like the intake advanced and exhaust retarded.

                  after dyno-tuning, without a hondata, i would have been screwed....lol
                  the car refused to idle on it's own....after some tuning of the idle, it now works (sometimes). My car would never work with auto-start because it would idle for about 2 seconds before it died. I have to keep my foot on the gas @ 1500rpm for about 2min, then it's fine.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    well the reason i did that is because when i have these shitty STR cam gears, and they have 1/4" 12pt screws, and when I was at the dyno they didn't have this socket and neither did I. So, when I got home I ended up buying a wrench and advancing my gears to make up for the milling.

                    Thats rough about your idle, I couldn't stand that, mine is pretty much like stock with a grumble, that's how I'd describe it.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      There is some video clips floating around of someone puttin in some 404's and on initial startup, the car idled up, warmed up, idled down around 800 and sounded great and didn't stall. Maybe someone knows which clip I am talkin about and could post it up.

                      There is also another clip of someone with 404's walkin around their car at idle, and it sounded great also.

                      Don't forget to watch some clips of built LS's in action, very impressive.

                      I have a 92 RS with 265K miles and she runs great. I want to build the bottom end with high compression and either go B16 head or full Crower parts on the LS head. I am confident the LS head with 404's can be tunned to idle fine, so the only other factor on my decision for Vtec or not is the deals I find for the respective parts I need.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        hmm anyway i can get those clips pleaseeeee or a link or something i love to see it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          When I was running Colt's stree grind cam the car idled great at 0 degrees cam timing. Once the intake cam was advanced and the exhaust cam was retarded a bit, the car had more of a lope to it. Overlap has a lot do with how badly/well a car will idle.

                          I'm currently running Colt's race cams on about 12.6:1 CR and they idle fairly smoothly around 900rpm with both cam gears at zero. I'm sure I could get the car to idle like a harley or barely idle at all if I was to adjust cam timing. Unfortuneately I won't be dyno tuning my car until the spring, so until then, my car sits in my garage as it is.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Sam92Teg
                            I am confident the LS head with 404's can be tunned to idle fine, so the only other factor on my decision for Vtec or not is the deals I find for the respective parts I need.
                            well...that's the trade-off...
                            if you want power, you'll need to run some overlap. You can get a better idle by running less overlap, but then you sacrifice power.

                            Sure, I could have tuned my car to idle better, but at the sacrifice of power

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Removing Power sterring and A/C

                              By taking away the power sterring and the a/c will that make a big diff and how much hp will this give me. And would it not be better if i just remove the belts only instead of the pullys and compressor?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by ZeroCool
                                By taking away the power sterring and the a/c will that make a big diff and how much hp will this give me. And would it not be better if i just remove the belts only instead of the pullys and compressor?
                                i'd say 1-2whp each unit. i never had AC in my RS and I left my PS in.

                                If you're going to remove it, remove it all...might as well save the weight if you're no longer using it.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  and how much does and acur rs weigh is it less than a ls if so how much do they both weigh???

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I don't know how accurate the scale is at our local race track, but i weighed in at 2400 without me in it. I have a RS

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I actually have a copy of the 404's video with the guy(VNTEC) walking around his car, I'll post em when I get home tonight, for shits and giggles I'll records my own car doing a cold start and post the audio file of that too.

                                      Eclypz, how much overlap are you running? What're your settingd? and do you remember how much power you gained over 0/0? I just can't see the gains bein enough to justify having a car that won't even idle.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by arw321
                                        When I was running Colt's stree grind cam the car idled great at 0 degrees cam timing. Once the intake cam was advanced and the exhaust cam was retarded a bit, the car had more of a lope to it. Overlap has a lot do with how badly/well a car will idle.

                                        I'm currently running Colt's race cams on about 12.6:1 CR and they idle fairly smoothly around 900rpm with both cam gears at zero. I'm sure I could get the car to idle like a harley or barely idle at all if I was to adjust cam timing. Unfortuneately I won't be dyno tuning my car until the spring, so until then, my car sits in my garage as it is.
                                        I'm curious what you did to get your CR. What piston's are you running? Did you mill the head or use a single layer head gasket? That's a pretty good CR for 404's isn't it? I've read on here that it needs to be at least 11:1 to get any benefit from them.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by ZeroCool
                                          and how much does and acur rs weigh is it less than a ls if so how much do they both weigh???

                                          According to team-integra site, the RS weighs around 2557 lbs. It is the lightest model as it has the fewest accessories stock.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by scooby_dooby
                                            I actually have a copy of the 404's video with the guy(VNTEC) walking around his car, I'll post em when I get home tonight, for shits and giggles I'll records my own car doing a cold start and post the audio file of that too.

                                            Eclypz, how much overlap are you running? What're your settingd? and do you remember how much power you gained over 0/0? I just can't see the gains bein enough to justify having a car that won't even idle.
                                            I'd take a video of my cold start idle, but it's no fun watching me constantly trying to start the car

                                            However, I can take a video of my warm idle.

                                            I'm running an overlap of 4. I've never had my car at 0,0, so I don't know what the difference was. But when you're building a N/A motor, every little bit counts.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by steadyeddy
                                              According to team-integra site, the RS weighs around 2557 lbs. It is the lightest model as it has the fewest accessories stock.
                                              I should add that when i weighed my car, I had the spare tire removed, lighter than stock wheels and a CF hood.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Eclypz--

                                                You mentioned in a previous post that you've had it on the dyno. What kind of power are you making?

                                                Does your last post mean that you have a CF hood? How much weight difference does that make?

                                                I'm collecting parts to build a motor with 404's, so there's a reason for my curiosity.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by steadyeddy
                                                  Eclypz--

                                                  You mentioned in a previous post that you've had it on the dyno. What kind of power are you making?

                                                  Does your last post mean that you have a CF hood? How much weight difference does that make?

                                                  I'm collecting parts to build a motor with 404's, so there's a reason for my curiosity.
                                                  CF hood? quite a big difference compared to stock. You can literally feel less weight in the front. Because of the size of our hoods....the OEM one is pretty damn heavy.

                                                  i dyno'd 180/141 at the wheels

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